NOTES ON ADVENT A.G.M. Saturday 19 October 2002
at The Masterson Room, St Chad's Cathedral, Birmingham
Present: Alex (Chair) & Jan Walker (plus Lucy and Sophie), Philip and Catherine Smith (plus Tim & Andrew), Jackie & Hans (John) Wijngaards, Maire and Basil Potter, Mike O'Kane, Pippa & David Barlow, (plus Adam & Ben), Nicholas Anderson, John Echevarria, John Challenor - representing Catholics for a Changing Church (CCC), Mike Hyland, Joe Mulrooney, Nicola and Pat Olivier.
Apologies: Angie Crawford-Leighton(Secretary), Mary Mulrooney, Gerry McGarvey, Peter Hull, Gerry Cawthorne, Emmanuel Ruffin.
Alex Walker led an opening prayer, uniting us with the gathering of a Pilgrimage of Hope and Healing organised by We Are Church in Westminster Cathedral that same day.
Minutes of last AGM (20 October 2001) were accepted.
Review of the Year
Alex said that Advent was now listed in the national Catholic Directory, though the website ought to be included. Northampton and Plymouth diocesan yearbooks now included Advent and Clifton had been applied for. Nicola and Pat Olivier reported that they were expecting, with other resigned priests in Arundel & Brighton, an invitation to meet the new bishop, and would raise the matter with him. Maire and Basil Potter said they had met with the Cardinal who agreed to have a gathering of resigned priests (Basil was in Westminster). Their current diocesan, Northampton, was not happy to have such a meeting, as he thought "people might think we're inviting you back".
Basil Potter, who attended the National Conference of Priests in September 2002 for Advent, said he had to ask to be invited but was made very welcome. Observers took part in all activities and discussions except voting. Basil had met two Westminster priests whom he asked to help him in contacting the priests of the diocese. One was already going to invite those of his year group to meet. The BBC Sunday Programme were there on the last day and interviewed Basil about being active in ministry. Some of the priest delegates did not know what Advent was. In answer to a question, Basil said that the idea of a telephone helpline for priests in difficulty had had to be dropped for lack of finance and the need for special training for operators. The 2003 NCP would be at Leeds in early September. A volunteer to attend would be welcome.
Treasurer - Mike O'Kane said he thought Advent should pay for its observer to attend the NCP. He reported however that income had dropped drastically, with fewer gatherings where a 'secret bag' could be passed round for donations. In the past year £56 had been collected, including one donation of £30. There had been a 15% increase in the numbers of standing orders, making 17 in all, and Mike appealed to other members to set one up. The balance to date was £873.96. We were paid up with the International Federation, and there were no outstanding expenses.
Joe Mulrooney added that the International Federation subscription was to go up shortly.
It was suggested that a note on the bulletin should say how much it costs and invite contributions. A published Treasurer's report could also be considered.
Mike added that it was agreed last year to send the Secretary a sum for expenses, which he had discussed with her but it had not yet been achieved. He said that Angie was hoping to get a computer.
Miscellaneous Contacts and Activities
Alex continued that he had taken part in radio discussions on celibacy on Radio 4's 'Ageing Faith', on another station's 'Talk Sport', and with Denis Jackson and Donald Cozzens on BBC digital. He had also given an interview to a researcher whilst in Malta for a programme involving Oliver McTernan.
Mike Hyland and Pat Olivier reported on contacts with Lloyd Miller and Antony Thomas, connected with a proposed ITV programme or series. Antony met several Advent members at one of the Hammersmith lunch gatherings. Alex asked any members who had contacts with the media to let him know so that forthcoming programmes or articles could be flagged up on the website. John Wijngaards recalled The Tablet's piece on 'Priests in Search of a Role' and suggested that Advent members could write a series of life stories for them.
Alex said that eleven visitors to the website had registered as members, including people in India, and some who had left India or the USA or Ireland. 5 others had registered as supporting the membership.
There was some concern about people who had formerly been at meetings but had lost touch. But some did not come after repeated invitations and they have to be allowed to make their own decision.
Charitable status - Alex reported that it had been refused in January, on the grounds that:
a) Advent does not claim to offer relief from diminished medical or physical condition arising from resigning priesthood / religious life, nor to offer a safe haven;
b) it works for change of the Church of which it claims to be part, which appears contradictory.
Philip Smith mentioned that the Derwent Trust had offered to help with applying for charitable status, but Alex said he had spoken with them, and they were surprised that we were turned down on the 'working for change' grounds. John Challenor said that CCC does not have charitable status but is closely associated with the People of God Trust, which does. John W suggested using wording such as 'to support the Catholic Church, especially looking after its ministers who are in special need'. If the problem continued he offered to approach the trustees of Housetop Care in February, to see whether their charitable status could give Advent a facility.
Alex continued with some thoughts about the Church's crisis over paedophile priests, falling vocations and gay lifestyle.
He recalled that Joe Evans had died in April, leaving a widow and two children, and Norman Haines in July. It was reported that at Norman's funeral the celebrant had placed a chalice and stole on the coffin, mentioning Norman's service as a priest. Alex drew attention to the In Memoriam spot on the website and asked for any names of deceased members to be supplied.
In relation to the Pope's obvious declining health, he suggested that Advent should have a corporate comment to use in case his successor opened the question of returning married priests to ministry.
International Federation of Married Catholic Priests - Madrid, 19-22 September 2002
After the lunch break Joe Mulrooney reported on the meeting of the International Federation he and Mike Hyland had attended as Advent representatives. His report is reproduced at the end of these notes. It was noted that those who attend the international meetings do so at their own expense, and some thought that Advent should try to meet the cost.
John Wijngaards addressed the group on Future Ministry in the Church.
In a brief survey of faith in society, he said that God has now been pushed out of all areas of life. Very early on, although Jesus had died in a most secular place, believers fell back on temple and priesthood notions. We still have an undue sense of the sacred being different, but in reality ordinary people meet God within themselves, and this is where the new generation lies.
The thought patterns of the ancient world changed about the time of the French Revolution, and closed communities such as the Catholic Church, Protestant Church, Communism developed separate systems of thought. Now by contrast we live in a secular metropolis with mingled thought systems. Today clergy are no longer protected by law, nor simply accepted. Everyone is judged by how good they are and what they can do, whether politician or priest.
The former tendency to seek security has shifted to seeking fulfilment and meaning in life. Some say the younger generation have a heightened sensitivity to spiritual concerns. They value action and independence, they are healthy and positive. Few at the top of the professions have allegiance to the Church. Where the priest was the dispenser of wisdom for a passive people, they now do not accept this. Moral judgement is made by the individual rather than by the Church authority. The child abuse issue has brought out the weakness of the Church system. A US study has found only 31% of Catholics there look for hierarchical rule, while nearly 70% own responsibility for themselves.
British Catholics remained in a backwater for a long time. At one point 50 % had never even heard of Vatican II. But the changes we talk about have actually happened in our Catholic population.
The Vatican is presently closed and conservative, but many play it safe and might not reject considerable change under a new liberal regime. Most bishops are pastoral rather than strong intellectuals. John drew an analogy with the breakdown of communism in Russia - the population had already lost faith in the leadership and the system. He commented nevertheless that a rogue bishop recently ordaining some women in Austria was not helpful - we have to change the Catholic community from within.
A discussion followed on what resigned priests can do under canon law, such as being obliged to provide the sacraments for people if they ask and no other priest is available. The irony was mentioned of insisting on Sunday Mass attendance yet not allowing married priests to provide it. The indult forbidding one member any ministry or teaching religion was said to be no longer applicable. Some dioceses (eg Cologne) are in fact using the ministry of resigned and married priests. One view was that the parish system is dying and we need to reinvent house churches. Priesthood needs redefining, so that it does not have to include all the ministries and powers. All the baptised are potential priests. JW outlined the development of priesthood - at first, subsidiary to bishops and deacons, then in the Middle Ages coming to the fore. It is based on the pagan Roman power structure - "The pagans want to boss each other, but it shall not be so among you," Jesus said. Yet it is so among us!
Advent's role was debated - should we be warning, controversial? What do we mean by working for change? Some seem to want to do nothing but wait. How should we react if we were invited to return to ministry? Some are not interested in returning, some find they do minister in other fields, some minister to those who come to them. We can enable ourselves and others to come to terms with what priesthood and ministry really mean and how the Church should develop in future.
Alex also challenged the meeting to confront whether Advent has any real purpose. It was pointed out that new people have made contact in recent times and look for support. There are different views on being more proactive or the opposite. John W described it as more a movement than an organisation, probably with more influence than we think.
Nicholas Anderson, who is an Anglican priest in parish ministry, asked for assistance with his PhD research. He invited Advent members to be interviewed for 1 to 2 hours on what sort of ministry they have and how they see ministry in the future.
JW mentioned that at St James, Piccadilly, London on Sat 18 January at 12.00 there was to be a reconstruction of how women deacons were ordained in the early church.
http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/deacreco.htm
at The Masterson Room, St Chad's Cathedral, Birmingham
Present: Alex (Chair) & Jan Walker (plus Lucy and Sophie), Philip and Catherine Smith (plus Tim & Andrew), Jackie & Hans (John) Wijngaards, Maire and Basil Potter, Mike O'Kane, Pippa & David Barlow, (plus Adam & Ben), Nicholas Anderson, John Echevarria, John Challenor - representing Catholics for a Changing Church (CCC), Mike Hyland, Joe Mulrooney, Nicola and Pat Olivier.
Apologies: Angie Crawford-Leighton(Secretary), Mary Mulrooney, Gerry McGarvey, Peter Hull, Gerry Cawthorne, Emmanuel Ruffin.
Alex Walker led an opening prayer, uniting us with the gathering of a Pilgrimage of Hope and Healing organised by We Are Church in Westminster Cathedral that same day.
Minutes of last AGM (20 October 2001) were accepted.
Review of the Year
Alex said that Advent was now listed in the national Catholic Directory, though the website ought to be included. Northampton and Plymouth diocesan yearbooks now included Advent and Clifton had been applied for. Nicola and Pat Olivier reported that they were expecting, with other resigned priests in Arundel & Brighton, an invitation to meet the new bishop, and would raise the matter with him. Maire and Basil Potter said they had met with the Cardinal who agreed to have a gathering of resigned priests (Basil was in Westminster). Their current diocesan, Northampton, was not happy to have such a meeting, as he thought "people might think we're inviting you back".
Basil Potter, who attended the National Conference of Priests in September 2002 for Advent, said he had to ask to be invited but was made very welcome. Observers took part in all activities and discussions except voting. Basil had met two Westminster priests whom he asked to help him in contacting the priests of the diocese. One was already going to invite those of his year group to meet. The BBC Sunday Programme were there on the last day and interviewed Basil about being active in ministry. Some of the priest delegates did not know what Advent was. In answer to a question, Basil said that the idea of a telephone helpline for priests in difficulty had had to be dropped for lack of finance and the need for special training for operators. The 2003 NCP would be at Leeds in early September. A volunteer to attend would be welcome.
Treasurer - Mike O'Kane said he thought Advent should pay for its observer to attend the NCP. He reported however that income had dropped drastically, with fewer gatherings where a 'secret bag' could be passed round for donations. In the past year £56 had been collected, including one donation of £30. There had been a 15% increase in the numbers of standing orders, making 17 in all, and Mike appealed to other members to set one up. The balance to date was £873.96. We were paid up with the International Federation, and there were no outstanding expenses.
Joe Mulrooney added that the International Federation subscription was to go up shortly.
It was suggested that a note on the bulletin should say how much it costs and invite contributions. A published Treasurer's report could also be considered.
Mike added that it was agreed last year to send the Secretary a sum for expenses, which he had discussed with her but it had not yet been achieved. He said that Angie was hoping to get a computer.
Miscellaneous Contacts and Activities
Alex continued that he had taken part in radio discussions on celibacy on Radio 4's 'Ageing Faith', on another station's 'Talk Sport', and with Denis Jackson and Donald Cozzens on BBC digital. He had also given an interview to a researcher whilst in Malta for a programme involving Oliver McTernan.
Mike Hyland and Pat Olivier reported on contacts with Lloyd Miller and Antony Thomas, connected with a proposed ITV programme or series. Antony met several Advent members at one of the Hammersmith lunch gatherings. Alex asked any members who had contacts with the media to let him know so that forthcoming programmes or articles could be flagged up on the website. John Wijngaards recalled The Tablet's piece on 'Priests in Search of a Role' and suggested that Advent members could write a series of life stories for them.
Alex said that eleven visitors to the website had registered as members, including people in India, and some who had left India or the USA or Ireland. 5 others had registered as supporting the membership.
There was some concern about people who had formerly been at meetings but had lost touch. But some did not come after repeated invitations and they have to be allowed to make their own decision.
Charitable status - Alex reported that it had been refused in January, on the grounds that:
a) Advent does not claim to offer relief from diminished medical or physical condition arising from resigning priesthood / religious life, nor to offer a safe haven;
b) it works for change of the Church of which it claims to be part, which appears contradictory.
Philip Smith mentioned that the Derwent Trust had offered to help with applying for charitable status, but Alex said he had spoken with them, and they were surprised that we were turned down on the 'working for change' grounds. John Challenor said that CCC does not have charitable status but is closely associated with the People of God Trust, which does. John W suggested using wording such as 'to support the Catholic Church, especially looking after its ministers who are in special need'. If the problem continued he offered to approach the trustees of Housetop Care in February, to see whether their charitable status could give Advent a facility.
Alex continued with some thoughts about the Church's crisis over paedophile priests, falling vocations and gay lifestyle.
He recalled that Joe Evans had died in April, leaving a widow and two children, and Norman Haines in July. It was reported that at Norman's funeral the celebrant had placed a chalice and stole on the coffin, mentioning Norman's service as a priest. Alex drew attention to the In Memoriam spot on the website and asked for any names of deceased members to be supplied.
In relation to the Pope's obvious declining health, he suggested that Advent should have a corporate comment to use in case his successor opened the question of returning married priests to ministry.
International Federation of Married Catholic Priests - Madrid, 19-22 September 2002
After the lunch break Joe Mulrooney reported on the meeting of the International Federation he and Mike Hyland had attended as Advent representatives. His report is reproduced at the end of these notes. It was noted that those who attend the international meetings do so at their own expense, and some thought that Advent should try to meet the cost.
John Wijngaards addressed the group on Future Ministry in the Church.
In a brief survey of faith in society, he said that God has now been pushed out of all areas of life. Very early on, although Jesus had died in a most secular place, believers fell back on temple and priesthood notions. We still have an undue sense of the sacred being different, but in reality ordinary people meet God within themselves, and this is where the new generation lies.
The thought patterns of the ancient world changed about the time of the French Revolution, and closed communities such as the Catholic Church, Protestant Church, Communism developed separate systems of thought. Now by contrast we live in a secular metropolis with mingled thought systems. Today clergy are no longer protected by law, nor simply accepted. Everyone is judged by how good they are and what they can do, whether politician or priest.
The former tendency to seek security has shifted to seeking fulfilment and meaning in life. Some say the younger generation have a heightened sensitivity to spiritual concerns. They value action and independence, they are healthy and positive. Few at the top of the professions have allegiance to the Church. Where the priest was the dispenser of wisdom for a passive people, they now do not accept this. Moral judgement is made by the individual rather than by the Church authority. The child abuse issue has brought out the weakness of the Church system. A US study has found only 31% of Catholics there look for hierarchical rule, while nearly 70% own responsibility for themselves.
British Catholics remained in a backwater for a long time. At one point 50 % had never even heard of Vatican II. But the changes we talk about have actually happened in our Catholic population.
The Vatican is presently closed and conservative, but many play it safe and might not reject considerable change under a new liberal regime. Most bishops are pastoral rather than strong intellectuals. John drew an analogy with the breakdown of communism in Russia - the population had already lost faith in the leadership and the system. He commented nevertheless that a rogue bishop recently ordaining some women in Austria was not helpful - we have to change the Catholic community from within.
A discussion followed on what resigned priests can do under canon law, such as being obliged to provide the sacraments for people if they ask and no other priest is available. The irony was mentioned of insisting on Sunday Mass attendance yet not allowing married priests to provide it. The indult forbidding one member any ministry or teaching religion was said to be no longer applicable. Some dioceses (eg Cologne) are in fact using the ministry of resigned and married priests. One view was that the parish system is dying and we need to reinvent house churches. Priesthood needs redefining, so that it does not have to include all the ministries and powers. All the baptised are potential priests. JW outlined the development of priesthood - at first, subsidiary to bishops and deacons, then in the Middle Ages coming to the fore. It is based on the pagan Roman power structure - "The pagans want to boss each other, but it shall not be so among you," Jesus said. Yet it is so among us!
Advent's role was debated - should we be warning, controversial? What do we mean by working for change? Some seem to want to do nothing but wait. How should we react if we were invited to return to ministry? Some are not interested in returning, some find they do minister in other fields, some minister to those who come to them. We can enable ourselves and others to come to terms with what priesthood and ministry really mean and how the Church should develop in future.
Alex also challenged the meeting to confront whether Advent has any real purpose. It was pointed out that new people have made contact in recent times and look for support. There are different views on being more proactive or the opposite. John W described it as more a movement than an organisation, probably with more influence than we think.
Nicholas Anderson, who is an Anglican priest in parish ministry, asked for assistance with his PhD research. He invited Advent members to be interviewed for 1 to 2 hours on what sort of ministry they have and how they see ministry in the future.
JW mentioned that at St James, Piccadilly, London on Sat 18 January at 12.00 there was to be a reconstruction of how women deacons were ordained in the early church.
http://www.womenpriests.org/traditio/deacreco.htm